airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 5, 2018 7:41:45 GMT -5
The Bible says love of money is the root of all kinds of evil...
AMP
For the love of money [that is, the greedy desire for it and the willingness to gain it unethically] is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves [through and through] with many sorrows.
Certainly that's true. At it's core that willingness to gain it unethically causes people to justify and rationalize that pursuit at what cost? Their ethics of course. That's self deception. But the heart of this passage I think is the fact that money counterfeits God. We deceive ourselves by what money can buy. Comfort, joy, security, happiness and better relationships. What we really desire deep in our hardened hearts is what God offers. But if I could just have a bigger house, go on more exquisite vacations, drive that hot car etc.
But self deception goes much deeper than that. It permeates every facet of our lives on every level. It was the original sin and has been the center of human sin nature since Adam and Eve. Every sin in our lives stems from self deception.
It doesn't go away when we first believe we just become aware of it. Yet we continue to seek it out.
We deceive ourselves each and every day. Not one day do we live without self deceiving ourselves. If you think not you are deceived.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 5, 2018 12:19:37 GMT -5
Is self deception the original sin of failure to put God's will before our own? Or is it a symptom of that misdirection of will? Was Eve capable of self deception without first knowing what she was deceiving herself for?
Without first gaining the knowledge of good and evil how could one self deceive? Were they self deceiving themselves in believing they didn't know they were naked or that it even mattered? No, they would have to be aware of the alternative, and they weren't. Was not self deception a result of the original sin rather than existing before it existed?
Money is one path to downfall, but so are other things mentioned in the Ten Commandments covered by Jesus' two. Whenever we lust after that which is not ours, be it flesh or material, we revoke the right we feel we have to not have the same done to us.
Yet, yes self justification will always accompany the self deception involved in thinking it's fine if I do it but not if it's done to me. It becomes a tangled expanding ball of confusion among humans growingly involved.
Then there are those who are aware of their deception as they purposely deceive others. Self deceived deceiving others. Ironic.
Look at the worst deceivers. Worldly wolves in Christian sheeps clothing who aggressively defend the ways of mankind over those of the Kingdom, deceiving others yet who self deceive themselves by thinking they are already saved so any means to their ends is justified.
So is self deception a cause (root) or an effect?
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 5, 2018 13:20:14 GMT -5
<<<Was Eve capable of self deception without first knowing what she was deceiving herself for? >>>
We don't deceive ourselves with foreknowledge.
<<<Is self deception the original sin of failure to put God's will before our own, that will being we love neighbour/enemy as self?>>>
Yes and no. Failure to put God's will above her own. Yes. Loving neighbor/enemy at that moment in the garden wasn't a part of it. She self deceived when she took a suggestion and then convinced herself that God's will was not best. All of us every day betray something we know is best for something we want more.
<<<Then there are those who are aware of their deception as they purposely deceive others. Self deceived deceiving others. Ironic.>>>
Yes indeed.
<<<So is self deception a cause (root) or an effect?>>>
In Eves case it appears to have been a cause. She didn't set out to do what she did she had to talk herself into it. She allowed the temptation to gain traction. She saw the fruit was good to eat and it was pleasing to her eye and the thought of gaining wisdom for herself was desirable.That's the process of self deception. God tells us what's best and we decide what's best for ourselves and go against what God wants for us. And from my own experience it's been my self deceptions that have led to settling for what looks good in my own eyes rather than seeking the best that God has for me... “Just this once.” “No one will know.” “What they don’t know won’t hurt them.” “I deserve this.” “I can stop any time.” “God’s still blessing me, so it can’t be that bad.” “I can always ask for forgiveness later.” All lies to justify what I'm about to do and rationalize it.
Between stimulus and response... between what happens to us and our response... between what we hear someone say to us and our response... between temptation and action lies a moment of choice. In order to betray what we know is right good and just we must make it into something that doesn't reflect badly on ourselves. Deception. Perpetrated by us on us.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 5, 2018 14:04:57 GMT -5
But before eating of the fruit there was no deception or self deception for humans, just innocence. Deception in all it's forms for humans became realized after the fact. Of course that did not apply to the serpent.
Eve faced the same dilemma. She may have found the fruit a temptation but she herself did not give into it. She was unaware there was any other choice. She never fell until given an alternate choice by the serpent. Only then could self will kick in. Effect, not cause.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 6, 2018 5:58:46 GMT -5
<<<She may have found the fruit a temptation but she herself did not give into it. She was unaware there was any other choice. She never fell until given an alternate choice by the serpent. Only then could self will kick in. Effect, not cause.>>>
God created her human with intelligence and reason no? She was given a choice. A choice to disobey God who she knew. To listen to a serpent who she didn't. Why? She saw something she desired. She then entered a process of rationalizing and justifying...She saw the fruit was good to eat and it was pleasing to her eye and the thought of gaining wisdom for herself was desirable. Since she had no knowledge the serpent was evil or good she made the decision on her own.
That is the origin of all sin IMO. We know what God wants for us (His will) but we want something more than obedience to God... so we talk ourselves into it. Those were her thoughts... it was good to eat,,,, it was pleasing to her eye... and the thought of gaining wisdom was desirable. And she left God behind for her disobedience. The serpent didn't convince her. He offered the temptation and the lie. She then convinced herself.IMO
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RNorm
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Cry Aloud and Spare Not...
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Post by RNorm on Apr 6, 2018 9:55:27 GMT -5
I disagree.
She knew enough to do what God said or not:
"And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” (Genesis 3:2-3)
And in essence, that is the same choice we all have -- to do what God says or not. And unlike us, she had the benefit of being able to ask God directly, since he was known to them and came down to the garden in the cool of the day. But unlike her, we have the benefit of having a bible which gives us countless examples of the consequences of disobedience, something neither she or Adam really knew about (well other than the fact that disobedience meant death, which again, they were clueless to what death really meant).
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 6, 2018 10:35:16 GMT -5
And may I add one more thing to what Norm posted. To say that Eve didn't know enough to make the right choice is to say she was not at fault for her disobedience. God was. Which is the same self deception Adam made when he blamed God for the woman He gave him. It's the center of all self deceptions. It's not our fault. It's someone else. If only they did this or didn't do that I wouldn't have done what I did. We all have free will... the ability to do what is good right and just ... or not. Once we betray what we know to be right we have no one to blame.
Finding fault anywhere other than in myself and taking responsibility is self deception.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 9, 2018 12:44:36 GMT -5
Or simply put she chose the original sin of 'self'. The commandment of God is selflessness.
The world man has created in our own image is 'self ' oriented. The Kingdom is selfless. The highway to death is 'self '. The narrow path to the Kingdom is selflessness. Rome, Israel, the Pharisees taught 'self '. Jesus taught selflessness. The world demands we follow it's traditional system built upon 'self'. Jesus was selfless and taught selflessness, thus 'He' was the way to the Kingdom. And so on.
I guess you could say the deception is self. Truth is selflessness.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 10, 2018 7:37:09 GMT -5
<<<Or simply put she chose the original sin of 'self'. The commandment of God is selflessness. >>>
I may be wrong but Adam and Eve had only one command at that time. Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
While I agree there is a selfish component to the act itself. I would say to take the impulse from a desire to an action there needed to be the thought process of justification. Justifying an act to disobey God who she knew... personally... who created her... who owned the garden He created... to instead believe the lie was the process of self deception in action. Self deception is lying to ourselves. Every one of us does it in a myriad of ways every day.
We need to convince ourselves that our selfish acts... are not selfish but justified in some way. Even when we know it's selfish. "I deserve this" "He/she making me do this" "He/she deserves this treatment or what I said" "this really isn't very important" "I'm just tired and hungry" "I didn't mean it"
Or as Adam..."The woman you gave me gave it to me,"
I have no doubt he believed at that moment it was not his fault he ate the fruit. He trusted his wife over God. A willful choice. Yet he also disobeyed God's only command to them both.
Between stimulus and response lies a moment of choice... we choose the response. We either seek the truth and choose to do the right thing (selfless/obedient)...or we seek justification for what we choose to do (selfish). And then ... do it. The justification comes before the act IMO
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Post by timothyu on Apr 10, 2018 12:56:59 GMT -5
Yes we call it self justification... that is to say justification to serve self. Self is man's hub from out of which comes all spokes. God's hub is selflessness. There is the separation.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 10, 2018 14:41:56 GMT -5
Yes but before we go against God to serve ourselves... we justify. The justification comes before the act. If we choose the truth rather than justify we act differently. But the choice depends on telling ourselves the truth or the lie. The truth comes from God the lie comes from ourselves.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 10, 2018 15:07:21 GMT -5
So then does it not first say that if we are thinking self first rather than others, then that determines how we justify?
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 11, 2018 7:37:55 GMT -5
That's the rub. If we know God we know the lie. If we choose the lie we must justify.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 11, 2018 11:59:44 GMT -5
Many self justify our traditional ways simply because they see the hypocrisy in how we live, but are forced to defend it thinking there is no alternative. Hence theology, patriotism, idealism and the like are born. Even many Christians are unable to define God in anyway other way than in terms of this universe thus making Him over in our own image.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 11, 2018 14:21:05 GMT -5
Many self justify our traditional ways simply because they see the hypocrisy in how we live, but are forced to defend it thinking there is no alternative. Hence theology, patriotism, idealism and the like are born.
Self deception permeates all we do and is at work every second of every day in the moment by moment choices we make. The hypocrisy is the lie manifested. We are never forced to do or say anything. Most times we just react thinking our choice was instantaneous and therefore out of our control. Inside our box... the self prism... we see the world as it relates to ourselves. In that box, where we live most of our daily lives, either we see people for what can be gained... or as a threat/competition... or barring either of those simply insignificant. Call it I/It But we have a choice to look outside that box and see others as God wills us to. For who they are. Call that I/You. With the same hopes, dreams, desires and brokenness. Equal to or greater than ourselves. It's only then that we treat them like Jesus did. Jesus didn't argue He persuaded with his genuine love compassion and grace toward others. He saw them for who they were and they knew it. He was transparent and they saw it. He was merciful and they felt it. He is totally and completely outside the box. Our greatest challenge is to live outside the box not just peer out the top occasionally. |
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