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Post by timothyu on Dec 19, 2018 14:26:19 GMT -5
It's true what they say. All the good deeds in the world (works) won't get you into the Kingdom. IT IS THE MORAL ETHICS THAT COUNT (what it is behind those deeds). Theology with it's rules and ceremony which bloats into the obesity of fragmented religion, designed to make a controlling institutional force over the people, is no substitute for the simple principles of just and ethical living as outlined by God from the beginning.
Ethics summed up in a simple commandment of loving neighbour as self, the backbone of salvation offered to those who repent of their previous self serving ways mankind has built it's world upon. Not the deeds, but the way of life accepted for what it is... rather than as a religious formula designed to sneak past the gate.
As long as we are here quarantined from the Garden, done to isolate us from the rest of creation and to have us reap what we sow, we are to focus on the ethics of loving neighbour as self. This rather than play along with the folly of religious salvation. The first accomplishes the latter without all the hoopla, and the reward will be the same as it follows the will of God rather than the will of man. Christianity serves it's purpose in telling the story, but it has no right to exceed it's boundaries and to take over and administer salvation according to it's own terms and self proclaimed authority.
No man or institution is a substitute for the Saviour and His simple commandments. They should only proclaim the will of God as an alternative to the will of man. Sow the seeds, not genetically modify them and determine their growth, often in alignment with the will of man.
The world of man may not be impressed if we deviated from the state sanctioned religion created to coincide with the self justifying unethical world of man. But one must remember this world's rewards are temporary and fleeting and have no place or influence in the Kingdom, no matter how some may proclaim we can make them great again.
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Post by timothyu on Dec 30, 2018 15:21:36 GMT -5
There is a new concept for video viewers on Netflix at the moment where the viewer decides which direction the film you are watching goes. ('Bandersnatch', based on a character from Lewis Carroll). The characters in the movie soon realize their actions are being controlled from an outside source. The deeper concept is that our lives are controlled by an outside source using us for their will, our lives mapped out (matrix thinking). This followed the fractured religious thinking that the devil makes us do the evil in the world and we have no say but we will be forgiven regardless.
This is where the lie came into play. We may be given directions, good or bad, but we ultimately have the choice whether to follow or not, or to correct a path wrongly chosen. We are not under control of God or the Adversary who may impose their will in our lives. We choose and those who often choose wrongly, often self justify their actions by casting responsibility onto outside sources, or worse yet, redefine what is good and evil to justify their actions.
It all comes down to the choice and the choice is simple, God's will or that of traditionally human will which is opposite of God, self oriented rather than considering effects upon others.
Man, as a means of self justification, continually implies bad choices are made for us (and we must make the best of them). Even if another's bad choice effects us personally, we still have the choice of how to react, for good or to ultimately make things worse.
Don't blame God, don't blame the Adversary. God says, good or bad the choice is ours, and we will reap the rewards accordingly.
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Post by timothyu on Jan 1, 2019 17:50:09 GMT -5
Denominations within Christianity are a result of theology, which is merely man's philosophy (opinion) about the aspects of the religion and scripture. At the moment there are over 7 billion people in this world with opinions (hence potentially 7 billion denominations). Now you have a choice, you can create a denomination of your own or follow one ready made, but in the end you are just following someone's opinion and not necessarily what Jesus taught. Never mind that the official State church abandoned Jesus for the world of man 1700 years ago and sought to do so long before that. All that followed regarding Christianity, stayed the same course.
It might be wise as a first step to follow only the opinion of Jesus. His teachings did not serve any denomination, they served the Father. His only gospel was the Gospel of the Kingdom., He did not come to create a religion which begats endless denominations. He came to suggest a way of life alternate to the ways man has created human earthly existance upon.
Simply put, there are two options. No not right/left. One is the will of man (in which right/left fits) and the other is the will of God in which there is no place for the divisive spirit of man.
Man's will serves self, seeks gain at the expense of others and defines good and evil to self justify acts pursuing the aforementioned. God's will loves neighbour as self and is the polar opposite to man's will. There is your real bipolar world. God's will seeks nothing for self.
Work on that concept for a while and if you feel the need to find a denomination to meld you into their image, then seek one that best serves the will of God and not the will of man. Not an easy thing to do.
Be careful. Christianity went back to serving the will of man almost 1700 years ago when it rejoined the State after centuries of trying to legitimize yet another institution of man (while the real Christians simply lived the ways of the Kingdom). This is not to say there aren't good people in Christianity. It is to say the scales within are tipped in favour of the will of man.
Focus not on human theology but on Jesus and loving all neighbours as self, and you can't go wrong. Truth is in scripture, not religion. Religion can serve either side, manor God. Of course the world of man will hate you for not playing by their rules but that division is what it is all about.
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Post by timothyu on Jan 3, 2019 18:09:12 GMT -5
I've heard it said it is good for a Christian to be politically involved and follow what is going on to keep up with the different views.
I was lead to wonder if the different views were the views of man or views of those of the Kingdom. Whose eyes are they being seen through? Is it like a local or even a foreigner viewing the politics of their own or another? Or would it be of a world viewing another world in comparison as would be the case of those of the Kingdom. Hence the purpose of this thread.
You see, a good many Christians have no concept of what Jesus taught regarding the Kingdom or the world of man. Matthew 24: 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
That the two are polar opposites and that we are to follow one or the other but not both, simply because it would be impossible if both worlds were to stick to their original beliefs. We can't have it both ways. Man tries. God doesn't. Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Now some might say then why does it seem we see church and state working together all the time? Well that goes back to a time when mainly Roman Gentiles (a Gentile considered by the Jews to be anyone not Jewish including their brother tribes of Israel) decided to make a fledgling Christianity over in their own image, creating hierarchy and modelling their new 'religion' on the same old institutions man has always built empires upon. Almost immediately we had a split between those of the Way and the Gentile bastardization.
Jesus' early followers understood the Gospel of the Kingdom and that God's ways and man's ways were opposite. The Kingdom was upside down in it's ways, so to speak, compared to the world man had built. Jesus' two commandments replicated the platform of the Kingdom. Matthew 22: 37-39
God's will came first before man's and that will was to love neighbour as self.
Man's will since the Garden had been our will before God's. There is no gain at the expense of others in loving neighbour as self. Self serving ways and self justification of deeds by constantly redefining what was good and evil has been pretty well the default setting of man since the Garden. It is the cause of all strife, division and woes in earth. No wonder God decided to quarantine us here to reap what we sow against each other, good begating good, but most often evil begating evil in retaliation.
The inmates running the asylum with no way out. No way out, that is until Jesus came along to teach His Gospel of the Kingdom and bring the Good News to fruition. Then those who regained their sanity had hope of a life free of the traditional self serving ways of man.
So there you have it. Two opposing systems (with only one warring against the other as warring had always served them best). The governance of man demanding loyalty to it's system of every man for themselves. God's governance without demands, but giving choice. His system of loving neighbour as self, a system frowned upon to this day by the institutions of man. No material gain there. Did you know that the early followers of Jesus were labelled Haters of Man? (Tacitus) This because they had no use for the default characteristics of man which they had repented of.
So what was the early result?
Remember, satan manipulates everything good to eventually serve self. That is what being Adversary to the will of God is all about. Nothing is safe, especially a new religion originally based upon a Kingdom where the Adversary has no place or power. A natural target.
The early non-Roman churches went about their business minding their own, rendering unto Caesar what was Caesar's but without rebellion to the world of man. An alternate system. No rebellious sword wielding Jews seeking their own extinction. Other than being scapegoats for when the gentile gods let down the Gentiles (It's those Jesus guys fault for not playing the game that the crops went bad and I didn't win the lottery) how could a people who went about doing good to those in need be a threat otherwise? They were the Red Cross or Salvation Army types of the day. Not a religion but a way of life as Jesus intended
That all changed when the Gentiles (mainly Roman) got involved and created a 'religion' modelled on the previous power structure institutions of man. Building a better mousetrap to suit their purpose. (even the Chinese today only reverse engineer) No new system any more, just the same ol' same ol' how can we personally benefit from this type of thingy. For 300 years changes, manipulations, infighting, book burning, persecutions and forced assimilation (especially of Jewish followers of Jesus) and the like carried on, until one day it all came together thanks to Constantine.
Here was an emperor emulated by politicians today (as the new church emulated Constantine), who saw the advantage of having Christians on his team. It came especially handy in a battle where he had Christians in his army identify themselves as such in the hopes Christians in the opposing armies would refuse to fight against their brethren. It worked. Christianity had been militarized for the good, not of God, but of man. Typical human move.
The next step was to totally broadside Jesus and His Gospel of the Kingdom and align what was originally meant to be an alternate system, with the system of man. Gentile Church and State became one. Gentile Christianity whored itself to Babylon (that's what Peter called Rome) and a faux Christianity was created where each side could use each other for their own purposes, yet both were modelled on the human tradition of power, gain and authority. Every offshoot to this day came from that Constantinian church.
Before you say... "How would God allow this? Hey, the Christians are the good guys". Consider that God knew the hearts of the Gentiles, and what they would do (build their own kingdom rather than follow the kingdom of God). Matthew 20: 25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
But how otherwise than using this faux religion, would the scriptures get carried forward for the discerning to find the Kingdom for themselves. Hidden in plain sight in a church housing both those of the will of man and those of the will of God. Couldn't leave it up to the Jewish Christians. Jerusalem would be destroy and the Jewish Christians forced into the Gentile church.
With the amalgamation the systems were no longer opposite in nature. Guess which one had to change it's theology to suit the other (even creating a new neutral gospel so as not to oppose the institutions of man). Do you think adversaries of God are going to convict their own?
Which finally brings me to the point about politics and religion.
We saw how Constantine used religion as do politicians today (see religious right, jihadists, and others like them) We have churches defending the ways of man, politically motivated to create division between mankind instead of between the world of mankind and the Kingdom. We have few teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom because that would expose them for the hypocrites that they are.
So my question and this topic's is... how can a true follower of Jesus immerse themselves in the political world of man taking sides within, when the real division was between the world of man and the Kingdom. Which side are you on?
Should we get involved in the will of man if we represent the opposing system? Is that not letting the world corrupt the seed as the parable said? How can we align and still be true to the Kingdom? We can't. We were always meant to work as an alternative because the will of man corrupts what it touches. It's not long before anything good in the world ends up being used for gain.
Can we follow politics to discern/contrast the difference between the way that God wills things and that man wills things? Yes.
Can we participate? Yes, but only as a minority. Those who seek good for all will be shunned by those who seek gain. ( There was a good example in Canada of a church minster who lead a political party, which although never becoming a main power, was able to as a third option, get bills passed to benefit the people by simply telling a minority government our way or no help.. take note US, the two party monopoly cannot serve the people. God set the example with a third option to the division of man.)
This is not a condemnation of Christianity as a whole. God knew what He was doing when He created the Gentile Church. There are both good and bad within, but we know from observation of the outside world, which side dominates. The trick is to be discerning. The Adversary has access to all worldly institutions including religion. Do you seek the Kingdom or support the institutions of man? Do you act accordingly?
Are we to bow before the governance of man or the governance of God as true Christians?
© ...timothyu
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Post by timothyu on Jan 5, 2019 18:26:38 GMT -5
God has already established that anyone who puts their will before His has sinned (regardless of degree). Those who understand this have already agreed we are all sinners and the only sinner we need point fingers at is ourselves for we are the only sinner we have any control over. It follows the same application as in sowing seeds. The only seed we have control over how it grows is our own. We can suggest to others but cannot enforce no matter how hard some try.
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Post by timothyu on Jan 5, 2019 18:38:13 GMT -5
Little pebbles come from rocks. Jesus gave Shimon (Simon) his nickname (Little Pebble/Peter) because Peter had correctly spoken in his identity of the Messiah, and Jesus said that that knowledge had come from God and not the opinions of man.
Hence the rock that the church would be built upon, would be knowledge coming from God, not the opinions of man.
Tens of thousands of denominations have shown a goodly proportion of the church has once again put the will of man before the will of God, not by repeating what God has already spoken, but by adding to it as they see fit.
How then can these teach that of God which goes against what they do?
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sissurf
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Ah.. to be so in love!
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Post by sissurf on Jan 6, 2019 0:19:35 GMT -5
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Post by timothyu on Jan 10, 2019 17:18:55 GMT -5
The Bible, from cover to cover, speaks of man's will vs the will of God. As a result we have an ongoing battle between the world man has made, and at first the will of God but now compliments of Jesus, the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said the Kingdom would be a stumbling block to the will of man affecting man's thinking, institutions, thus Christianity eventually as we have seen. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Man in return, has placed their own stumbling blocks towards the Kingdom. Even using the very religion meant to further the will of God or the Gospel of the Kingdom itself. Just as in the outside world, there are two forces at work within Christianity, man's theologies and God's scriptures. One promotes the Kingdom, the other the institutional/denominational empire of man. People end up defensive of their denominations instead of the Kingdom. Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Which stumbling block are you affected by, man's or the Kingdom's? If honesty prevails, it will be the Kingdom that is causing more problems for the majoral defenders of the ways of man. That is what makes the will of man, which is the same as the Adversary, the ruling mentality in this world.
Is it wise to chose your philosophies, denominations, political parties, etc. ...all being founded on the same human will of man motives? What did Jesus say? Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
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Post by timothyu on Jan 18, 2019 15:25:17 GMT -5
Jesus' death was a good example of how the will of man uses it's survival of the fittest logic. In order for the world of man to survive against the Kingdom they killed the messenger and the King. End of story right? Nope. God one upped them by not only restoring the King but opening the door to the oppressed of this world to jump ship to the Kingdom. So realistically, man's logic actually brought into reality what it sought to destroy. How can a self defeating mindset like this hope to continually rule over the world and survive?
Why then do people hang onto the self defeating will of man? Why do they defend it in others? It's not like we are using it like the beasts, simply to eat. If we reject the logic behind it, will we still trip up? Of course.. we're still beasts ourself, but we have the nature also to love others as ourselves, so we have an alternative concept to strive for. Seems to me... Focusing on one defeats the other.
We trip as we go, but instead of flagellating ourselves, grin and say "boy that was a stupid way of doing things. We humans is dumb". Unless you can laugh at yourself for being man's concept of human, you'll never be anything more.
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sissurf
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Ah.. to be so in love!
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Post by sissurf on Jan 29, 2019 12:21:50 GMT -5
The Kingdom of God is where God lives. It is everywhere but it is spiritual and you can't see it. Jesus said we must be born again to perceive and enter into it (John3:3-5). Paul tells us that it is not in food and drink (natural things) but in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). He also said it is not in words but in power (1Corinthians 4:20).
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weaslespit
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Social Liberal, Fiscal Conservative - Usually
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Post by weaslespit on Jan 29, 2019 15:31:45 GMT -5
The Kingdom of God is where God lives. It is everywhere but it is spiritual and you can't see it. Jesus said we must be born again to perceive and enter into it (John3:3-5). Paul tells us that it is not in food and drink (natural things) but in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). He also said it is not in words but in power (1Corinthians 4:20).
All lip service if you don't try to live by it... Attacking perceived political opponents is not walking His path. You can't degrade others with whom you disagree one moment then switch masks and 'act' Christian. That isn't how it works. You must 'try' to walk His path at all times. Petty, partisan politics only serves to detour us from that path. I have made my share of mistakes due to politics and have done my best not to repeat them and when I do, I try to atone for those human failings as I am called to do.
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Post by timothyu on Jan 29, 2019 17:40:37 GMT -5
It seems to me life is getting too short to waste it on the petty politics and infighting of mankind. Why waste time on that which is not of the Kingdom nor will exist in the Kingdom. Of course those not of the Kingdom would likely disagree or mindlessly go on as they always have.
This is why there is no place for them in the Kingdom... they are unchangeable. Yet those of the Kingdom spend their time more wisely, going about seeking to make life better for all rather than focussing on a political affiliation which only serves to divide. We are to bow before God, not the wisdom and governments of mankind.
Nations and governments of man are already damned. No sense in joining in the damnation. The separation Jesus taught is between world of man and the Kingdom, not useless conflict among humans. Chose your side wisely. Jesus has given the options and for those who chose wrongly the outcome is 'tough beans folks'. You've had your only reward. Live long and prosper arguing politics online or in life. When you die you will no doubt glow in your accomplishments.
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weaslespit
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Social Liberal, Fiscal Conservative - Usually
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Post by weaslespit on Jan 31, 2019 10:43:49 GMT -5
It seems to me life is getting too short to waste it on the petty politics and infighting of mankind. Why waste time on that which is not of the Kingdom nor will exist in the Kingdom. Of course those not of the Kingdom would likely disagree or mindlessly go on as they always have.
This is why there is no place for them in the Kingdom... they are unchangeable. Yet those of the Kingdom spend their time more wisely, going about seeking to make life better for all rather than focussing on a political affiliation which only serves to divide. We are to bow before God, not the wisdom and governments of mankind.
Nations and governments of man are already damned. No sense in joining in the damnation. The separation Jesus taught is between world of man and the Kingdom, not useless conflict among humans. Chose your side wisely. Jesus has given the options and for those who chose wrongly the outcome is 'tough beans folks'. You've had your only reward. Live long and prosper arguing politics online or in life. When you die you will no doubt glow in your accomplishments.
There comes a point, however, where you cannot ignore the politics and actions by the government as a Christian and you must take action to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Ignoring politics and government of mankind completely is to be complicit which is also just as dangerous a path as becoming too involved to the point of forcing ones religion onto others.
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Post by timothyu on Jan 31, 2019 14:03:59 GMT -5
Maintaining awareness is of obvious importance. It leads us to the oppressed. To fall for the concept we have any say in the matter short of peaceful protest on the streets as a means demanding change is useless. You can give people a democracy so they can argue (that's all it is, because like the Fed you can chose, but the choices both serve the same god)) but you haven't removed mammon as their god. That is not how the rigged system works, nor is it how it has ever worked.
We have oppressors and the oppressed. We can fall for the Adversary's game where we think partaking in the games of man (his system instead of God's) can lead to good (there is always a trade off or backlash), or we can follow what Jesus taught about dealing with the oppressed directly. God seems to think we are to continually take a beating while the elite thrive. By turning the cheek we show our fruit while the oppressors either heap more coals on their own heads or eventually see the error of their ways and repent. But to think we can bring about change by using the same methods as those who oppose is nothing more than a dog chasing it's tail.
The will of man cannot right the problems created by the will of man. Gandhi used the power of God's will turning the other cheek to subdue the British Empire. Mother Teresa did not sell out when she hobnobbed with the elite to get their money. She was part of the system yes but there was no benefit for the system. Can those who waste their time online or argue politics in general say the same? She was more than happy to use their pride and vanity over their contributions because she was putting others first and had no gain for herself any more than the contributors had to get their hands dirty and directly involve themselves with the oppressed. It wasn't about her or the system, but the oppressed and she knew it.
For those Christians addicted to the political will of man, perhaps first removing politics from Christianity is a good first step. Christians are to be of the Kingdom and it's governance, not the world of man or it's governance. The second and harder step would be to remove Christianity from politics because it is just to easy to be mislead into thinking some human purpose can be pawned off as the will of God. They are two opposing systems. The bottom line is whose system are any of us a part of and support, man's or God's?
Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
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weaslespit
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Social Liberal, Fiscal Conservative - Usually
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Post by weaslespit on Feb 1, 2019 9:45:41 GMT -5
Maintaining awareness is of obvious importance. It leads us to the oppressed. To fall for the concept we have any say in the matter short of peaceful protest on the streets as a means demanding change is useless. You can give people a democracy so they can argue (that's all it is, because like the Fed you can chose, but the choices both serve the same god)) but you haven't removed mammon as their god. That is not how the rigged system works, nor is it how it has ever worked.
We have oppressors and the oppressed. We can fall for the Adversary's game where we think partaking in the games of man (his system instead of God's) can lead to good (there is always a trade off or backlash), or we can follow what Jesus taught about dealing with the oppressed directly. God seems to think we are to continually take a beating while the elite thrive. By turning the cheek we show our fruit while the oppressors either heap more coals on their own heads or eventually see the error of their ways and repent. But to think we can bring about change by using the same methods as those who oppose is nothing more than a dog chasing it's tail.
The will of man cannot right the problems created by the will of man. Gandhi used the power of God's will turning the other cheek to subdue the British Empire. Mother Teresa did not sell out when she hobnobbed with the elite to get their money. She was part of the system yes but there was no benefit for the system. Can those who waste their time online or argue politics in general say the same? She was more than happy to use their pride and vanity over their contributions because she was putting others first and had no gain for herself any more than the contributors had to get their hands dirty and directly involve themselves with the oppressed. It wasn't about her or the system, but the oppressed and she knew it.
For those Christians addicted to the political will of man, perhaps first removing politics from Christianity is a good first step. Christians are to be of the Kingdom and it's governance, not the world of man or it's governance. The second and harder step would be to remove Christianity from politics because it is just to easy to be mislead into thinking some human purpose can be pawned off as the will of God. They are two opposing systems. The bottom line is whose system are any of us a part of and support, man's or God's?
Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. I agree, only arguing politics online is no better than those Christians who only offer 'thoughts and prayers' on social media. As you say, actions must be taken from within the system, as shown by Ghandi, MLK, etc al. But action must be taken - politics of man cannot simply be ignored...
I have started with myself, forcing myself when out in the world to not let fears of those who are unknown to me or different than me drive my actions. Bias is admittedly a hard human fault to overcome.
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