airfresh
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Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
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Post by airfresh on Mar 24, 2018 8:12:11 GMT -5
<<<However, what is your opinion on what happened 1700 years ago when the church realigned itself with the Empire in order to create an institution to have physical authority over mankind? >>>
I'm not really concerned with that. I'm concerned with the here and now.
<<<Could Christianity teach the Gospel of the Kingdom without convicting itself? I say no. But scripture can.>>>
The word of God has the power to correct any and all mistakes made by man. The transforming power if God through Jesus is more powerful than man or Satan. Faith(Jesus/Salvation)expressing itself through love(the love of God) is the only important thing. That is the power of the Word not the world.
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Mar 24, 2018 11:35:57 GMT -5
That is not what the Bible says. In Proverbs, we see the end of the road for mankind in general: "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12)
However, Christians are in this world to help those on that path of death to find the detour that leads to life:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) Unfortunately, too many Christians find themselves entangled with the cares of this world and forget that our primary purpose is to help people find the way that leads to life, rather than enjoin so many others in trying to change the world system that already is in the lap on the evil one "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
My 2 cents...
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Post by timothyu on Mar 24, 2018 15:33:24 GMT -5
'But how often does that contrast between the will of God/ways of the Kingdom get taught in contrast to daily life and what mankind holds dear in their institutions and governments? >>>
In my world all the time.'
Now that, I am glad to hear. It's not often the two are compared, one being selfless, the other built upon a foundation of gain at the expense of others. (as a matter of fact in the old GB Christianity forum, that comparison was condemned on a regular basis)
"Hated? We (active growing Christians)are hated now."
Perhaps so, but is the hatred simply because it is of a differing religion or ideology or the hypocrisy? Or is the hatred because of Jesus' teachings of the Kingdom and loving neighbour as self, anti-gain at the expense of others?
"Allegiances? Are we not commanded to obey our rulers until or unless they ask us to disobey God."
Obey them so as to not become rebellious yes, but support, defend, or believe in them, no. I agree. But there is precious little out there, especially the motives of rulers, that obeys the will of God.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 24, 2018 15:39:08 GMT -5
"<<<However, what is your opinion on what happened 1700 years ago when the church realigned itself with the Empire in order to create an institution to have physical authority over mankind? >>>
I'm not really concerned with that. I'm concerned with the here and now."
Has not what happened to Christianity then influenced by way of 1700 years of unchecked tradition, what the religion became here and now?
"The word of God has the power to correct any and all mistakes made by man."
Exactly, as is being done by pointing out how the religion returned itself to the world of man.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 24, 2018 15:49:00 GMT -5
'"The Christian institution itself is designed to work with the world of man, not as an alternative to it"
That is not what the Bible says. In Proverbs, we see the end of the road for mankind in general:"
Agreed, the Bible says the opposite to Christianity working with the world of man, acting not physically against it but as an alternate way. But then again Jesus never presented it to become a religion but rather an alternate way of life. Man had differing ideas as usual. It became weaponized as today's catchphrase calls it..
Yet this re-alignment with the world of man is what had happened and continues to do today. The Christian institution rejoined the world of man, recreated itself in the world own image simply because the ruling Gentiles didn't get the Gospel of the Kingdom and returned to the only thing they knew, what the world had taught them and what had worked before. A good reason the Gospel of the Kingdom was left behind for another in mainstream Christianity until this day but thankfully is still available to us in the all but ignored scripture pertaining to it while another gospel is promoted in it's stead..
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Post by timothyu on Mar 24, 2018 15:58:23 GMT -5
'Unfortunately, too many Christians find themselves entangled with the cares of this world and forget that our primary purpose is to help people find the way that leads to life, rather than enjoin so many others in trying to change the world system that already is in the lap on the evil one'
The parable of the Sower. And yes, we cannot change a world system by using the same ideals that that world system is built upon. Of course the result is we are seen as unpatriotic or traitorous by playing along but with allegiance to another Kingdom. Fine by me. It's their world, not mine.
Jesus was well aware of the attitudes of the religion of His day and what would follow through today in Christianity, rejecting His Gospel of the Kingdom.
Matthew 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
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airfresh
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Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
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Post by airfresh on Mar 24, 2018 17:15:22 GMT -5
This topic has gotten off course. Unless your purpose is to show Christianity is... no good. And because of that Christians are... no good. I just don't agree with your broad based conclusions of Christianity or broad view that it is some kind of institution. As if it's similar to a governmental body. That has somehow gone terribly off track.
You may be disillusioned. May I suggest you look for a church that doesn't fit your view. They exist and are thriving. And aren't as scarce as you might think.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 24, 2018 17:57:13 GMT -5
I see (not any particular faith within) but the church (hence Christianity) as having rejoined the world of man 1700 years ago and has remained under that prime influence ever since. I only see those of the Kingdom a minority within. I see those within the church either 1) being trained to swear allegiance to the church or sect within Christianity rather than allegiance to Jesus and His Kingdom OR 2) finding the Kingdom and seeing how it contradicts the re-alignment to man's world, and stating so in the same way as the early Christians clashed with the Pharisees. There is no personal avarice intended.
The intent is to merely point out the division between the Kingdom and the world of man including it's man revised Christian religion. Christianity is an institution of man for it contains the same divisions as all else of man's creation. Man is about division, God is about unity within the ranks. One side seeks to justify mankind's ways by using God, The other side changes it's traditional human ways to suit the will of God. One side lashes out at the other, the other merely states it's peace. We cannot have it both ways so must choose a side within Christianity.
One side good according to Jesus, as was the intention of the earliest followers. One side bad as became the motivation of those gentiles who sold out the Kingdom, whoring itself to the Empire. (Babylon being Rome, according to Peter)
So some Christians are good according to the will of God as directed by God, some are good for nothing as directed by the self serving will of man. And ironically each side will see the other as wrong, but in the end there can be only one. Which of the two within Christianity will it be?
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Post by timothyu on Mar 24, 2018 18:09:43 GMT -5
'or broad view that it is some kind of institution'
Historically speaking, is that not what occurred early on in spite of Paul, when Roman gentiles stepped in and started making Christianity over in their own image in comparison to the WAY, complete with hierarchy and governance over the followers, the only system of institutional control they had ever known?
Did not a WAY of life become yet another religion?
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 25, 2018 8:35:39 GMT -5
<<<Did not a WAY of life become yet another religion?>>>
Following Christ is a way of life. Completely different from a secular way of life. But man is imperfect. The word of God is not. Man... no good ... will still be imperfect following Christ. Knowing Him more, acting on His teachings produces a better though still imperfect man... not wholly good still but the influence results in... the fruit of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control... very good indeed.
And even though we've seemed to have gotten way off track... the OP really also speaks to how different people's view of Christians will affect how they view the statement Christians are good for nothing.
Tim I think you generally view Christianity and Christians as good for nothing... again in a general way. You seem to believe that Christianity has lost it's collective way. I'm more concerned with what I can do to further the Kingdom. Not the politics of religion or politics in general. Debating those things results in the opposite of the fruit of the spirit. IMO
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Post by timothyu on Mar 25, 2018 13:08:27 GMT -5
I, for the most part, agree with what you say. Yes, following the Messiah is a way of life, opposite to the traditional way of life of mankind.
My focus is on the upside-down Kingdom, but one must first learn to see past the tradition of nothing further than the church/religion that we have been taught. This is where the blind of tradition have taught others to be blind also.
I wouldn't say that Christianity has lost it's collective way but that there are two ways within it. One that focuses on the church/religion and one that focuses on the Kingdom. The one that focuses on the Kingdom has found the narrow path. The one that focuses on the church/religion has found the introductory first step, but needs to look beyond this worldly theological highway and find the off ramp to the Kingdom.
Unfortunately the powerful men of religion have shut the gate to the narrow path of the Gospel of the Kingdom as a matter of self preservation, for the same reason the Pharisees feared Jesus' teachings. They have turned what is a first step towards God and the Kingdom into a self serving final solution. Encouragement to look beyond the ground-floor religious establishment towards the Kingdom is needed, especially in a time when churches and Christianity are floundering.
As Jesus said ...
Luke 4: 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
Matthew 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
But I will stand back now and allow you to get back on track and watch with an open mind.
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airfresh
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Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
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Post by airfresh on Mar 26, 2018 8:38:49 GMT -5
I agree with what you posted prior to this. <<<Unfortunately the powerful men of religion have shut the gate to the narrow path of the Gospel of the Kingdom as a matter of self preservation, for the same reason the Pharisees feared Jesus' teachings.>>> Though we may not be that far apart. I agree there are Christian "institutions" that do not set the Gospel or the Kingdom as the prism of all they focus on.
The gate is not shut. Only God can do that. The narrow gate has always been hard to find and harder to enter. As the rich man who turned away can attest. Some of these "institutions" simply don't point to the narrow path due to the prism they pass their teaching through.
As far as the topic The direction I thought it would take was between looking at Christians as no good and looking at Christians as doing good for nothing. I still think there is even more layers to the OP statement but to keep the topic alive I was also thinking of seeing what other individuals or churches might be doing along the lines of ministering to others while serving God not man.
Some men in our church have started a ministry based on various Scripture that speaks to helping widows and orphans. There are a couple that are dear to me... James 1:27 says, “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.”
The "keep oneself unstained from the world.” speaks to your points about working for the Kingdom not the world.
Psalm 68:5 says, “Father of the fatherless and protector of widows, is God in his holy habitation.” Ministering to widows and the fatherless is furthering the Kingdom and is to walk with God in His Holy Kingdom.
Once a month a group of men meet at the church with a plan. They have a short devotional and pray together about their plan, the people in need and themselves. Then go out tools in hand in two separate groups to two different homes and do chores, make repairs, fix things that need fixing and otherwise spend a few hours doing what these single mothers in the church cannot otherwise do or have no family to help do them.
With a heart of ministering to these broken families and serving God. The expectation is the group will expand and the ministry will expand to "widows and orphans" outside the church.
Being good... for nothing in return. Just a bunch of Christians who are good for nothing.
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Mar 26, 2018 12:38:12 GMT -5
In other words, as the Master himself stated:
"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give" (Matthew 10:8)
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Post by timothyu on Mar 26, 2018 13:57:58 GMT -5
Absolutely. But the 'road closed - detour' sign has been up for so many centuries it is hard for the explorers to see past the blockade.
Matthew 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
If God so wills it, things will come together and followers of Jesus will see past the ruse designed to keep travellers loyal to the institution rather than the Gospel. The info is all there. People just need to see past what is presented and focus on the real Kingdom, not the religious philosophy (theology) riddled replica. A starting point for sure for many but by no means the final destination. Scripture is the accurate map while the religion is the un-updated dashboard gps.
In a reverse way of doing things, ask yourself... What would the Adversary do if confronted with the Kingdom it has no part in? Would it outright deny it focusing even more attention on it? Or would it subtly direct man away from it with differing gospels and all manner of substitutes designed to keep man of the world? Think about it with an open mind.
As a matter of fact.. new thread so that Airfresh may carry on here.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 26, 2018 14:21:53 GMT -5
Yes, no need to brow beat them with fear and brimstone, request life savings in return for a prayer, or demand loyalty of like minded. Those are the ways of mankind.
Asking someone first what it is about the world they hate will open more doors to divulging the solution, than hitting them out of the blue with God sales pitches. Going out and doing good for nothing but the hope it will be played forward will attract a lot more people than the tactics of some walled faith within Christianity. Attracted, not to man's theology, but to the original concept behind Christianity that Jesus taught.
Loving neighbour as self with no expectation of gain, the polar opposite to the traditional will of man where gain at the expense of others is key.Even atheists find it hard to bash good ethics, while religious institutions are an easy target.
Yet those who go out will also be bashed by other faiths who will condemn them saying works do not bring about salvation. True enough, Salvation by way of the Gospel of the Kingdom brings about good fruits but those good fruits can also lead others to seek the Kingdom.
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