airfresh
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Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
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Post by airfresh on Mar 20, 2018 13:41:52 GMT -5
Take a minute and think about it. Your thoughts?
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Post by timothyu on Mar 20, 2018 13:55:53 GMT -5
Can you clarify? Otherwise the first thing that comes to mind is that setting the example of what God (not man) calls good is in itself good for something in this penal colony for mankind called our world. Of course Christian allegiance must be to the Kingdom and not to the world man has created in our own image. That in itself unfortunately, is rare.
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Post by borsht on Mar 20, 2018 18:55:37 GMT -5
Jesus raised the same point. Without me ye can do nothing” (John 15:5); But -Philippians 4:13 , Paul addreses this statement and stated. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. If you are going through times of pressure and trial, I urge you to read this little letter from Paul. It will encourage you greatly, especially if you remember it was written by Paul as he was chained to a Roman soldier awaiting trial.
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airfresh
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Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
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Post by airfresh on Mar 21, 2018 6:32:09 GMT -5
You guys are on the right track. It's kind of like unpacking Scripture. It's not what it appears to be at first glance or without looking for deeper understanding. How you interpret this statement depends on where you sit and your understanding of Christianity. Or lack of. There's a lot more there. Any one have anything to add?
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Post by timothyu on Mar 21, 2018 11:07:25 GMT -5
There are a couple more aspects to that statement presented without context.
First is that loving neighbour/enemy as self is not a commercial or capitalistic venture. It is done to help or treat another in the same way we would wish to be helped/treated in a similar situation. Should thought of heavenly reward be a motivator? Or is that also seeking a price for deeds which are supposed to represent the ideals of the Kingdom, which in themselves fly in the face of man's concept of reward. Showing our fruits expecting nothing in return is doing good for nothing, in effect making Christians good for nothing.
Second, from the viewpoint of worldly man, Christians who follow the commandments of Jesus are seen as good for nothings, haters of mankind. This was the label placed upon the earliest followers of Jesus, the Way. They were considered by the Roman Gentiles to be haters of mankind, that is refusing to play the game, live by the system mankind created as a foundation to it's institutions and society (still prevalent today). The ways of the Kingdom are a reversal of the traditional ways of mankind.
Because these followers of Jesus refused to live by the ideals of man, that is to say... self interest, gain at the expense of others, and self justification of deeds making good and evil whatever suited their agenda (like today), they were considered outcasts/outlaws and good for nothing as far as the world of man was concerned. Today they would still be be called traitors to the system, but the gentile church 1700 years ago rejoined the system of man and has not been seen as outcast since, but a partner with the secular world of man, in contradiction with what Jesus taught about the Gospel of the Kingdom. Only Jesus' true followers would be seen as outcasts and good for nothing today, including by the church for refusing to play their hierarchal governing ways.
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airfresh
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Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
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Post by airfresh on Mar 21, 2018 14:33:06 GMT -5
There are a couple more aspects to that statement presented without context. Some context. My first thought when encountering the original topic post on a billboard was to assume it was an insult toward Christians along the lines you mentioned here... from the viewpoint of worldly man, Christians who follow the commandments of Jesus are seen as good for nothings, haters of mankind. This was the label placed upon the earliest followers of Jesus. That is not so unlike the view of the world today. From my own Christian view after having time to think about it I saw it more as you stated here... Showing our fruits expecting nothing in return is doing good for nothing, in effect making Christians good for nothing.
Christians do many things that others would expect "something" in return. Money, respect, appreciation, recognition etc but we do it for none of that. We do it out of love simply because He loved us first. And Borsht adds another layer to which I would add Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone." So on our own we are really good for nothing but not in the way the world would see it. When we do show our fruits, when we express our faith in love toward those around us and use our fruits to serve their needs we are not "serving" them. Or doing something for them for nothing in return. We are ministering to them and serving God... for nothing but our love for him. No reward. The reward has already been given on the cross which we can not attain on our own.
I think there may be even more to unpack here.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 21, 2018 17:38:22 GMT -5
'I think there may be even more to unpack here.'
Well from the viewpoint of the Adversary, the Kingdom is good for nothing in it's opinion because not only does it have no control there, but there will be no room there for the Adversary or those of it's kind, be they secular or religious. Like GB, it's world will come to an end. The few Christians that follow the Gospel of the Kingdom instead of another gospel, who are just like the Kingdom they adhere to, will be seen as good for nothing also, not serving the Adversary's purpose. Happily, being hated by this world because of allegiance to another world, is a good thing.
(or am I going too far off your track)
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 22, 2018 5:35:07 GMT -5
(or am I going to far off your track)
Not at all. It highlights the difference between believers and non. Which caused me to see the statement in two different lights. From the world view Christians are not only viewed as good for nothing but also even worse. Detrimental, harmful, intolerable. But from a Christian view there is nothing good in us on our own without the saving grace of God through His Son. And having received that Grace we are called to express our faith though love(being good not for us but others)... for nothing. Their gain not ours. Galatians 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Regardless of the consequences. Not for ourselves but for the Kingdom. I love that verse. Circumcision was the political issue of the day for those following a political version of faith. More interested in self rather than selfless. Not seeing what was important. Or as the Scripture says the only thing that counts. Faith expressing itself through love. Faith in who? Faith in what? For the benefit of who? Not self... or politics... or works for it's own sake. Or worse for our own self edification.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 22, 2018 14:11:57 GMT -5
Going to head for a moment perhaps off track but your mention of politics reminded me of a previous consideration. Remember when in the US people who were not religious simply had a take it or leave it way of seeing things, a live and let live attitude towards Christianity. This also during the time of the new televangelists (who eventually turned more away from than towards Jesus by their hypocritical actions). Yet in the last three decades with the mass introduction of rights over responsibility, that has indeed changed into a more hostile attitude against religion including Christianity and live and let live has gone the way of the dodo, especially with the help of the internet which gives everyone the voice Babel once prevented.
My point is, no offence intended, that outside the US this change towards seeing Christians as 'Detrimental, harmful, intolerable' as Airfresh said, was not the case until most recently when overspill has finally moved out into the world. The us against them mentality has arrived compliments of US cultural influence. This is not a dig at the US for there have been a long line of leading influential empires from which influences flow and every empire has crumbled due to those same eventual influences resulting from division. Us against them has also produced a resulting spinoff with their new enemy, not communism but the Muslim faith. So not only has live and let live become politicized like right vs left, but religion vs secular has become a political battle-cry also, just like it once was during both the French and Russian revolutions.
All religions are being lumped together as evil, not for what they teach but because they are on the other side of the fence. Conflict and division even rages within US Christianity between religious right and the others but outside the US there is little political Christianity as of yet except for self interest groups finding Christianity an easy platform to overtake due to their loving neighbour attitude which of course can be easily hijacked.
But isn't this just an example of how throughout the ages that the divisive ways of man have always worked against the Kingdom, including in Christianity, where for a short time the followers of Jesus left the world of man behind, calling it no good and turned to the Kingdom calling it good. This while wisely keeping in mind that those who turned away were still human and no good and Christianity itself would return to the ways of man to become no good again which it did 300 years later. The only good is in the teachings of Jesus and His kingdom. So yes, even Christianity is no good. Nothing man has a hand in can remain good for long. Ebb and flow.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 23, 2018 10:06:52 GMT -5
<<<The only good is in the teachings of Jesus and His kingdom. So yes, even Christianity is no good.>>>
There are certainly some no good Christians but I would disagree that Christianity is no good. There are some no good teachers also but would you say education is entirely no good? Until we fully understand and embrace the truth that even as Christians we have nothing good in our own self and submit to the will of God and rid ourselves of our own selfishness and self centered desires we will continue to ebb and flow and mistake our own will for His. Not good.
Part of the human condition not even the followers of Jesus in his immediate circle were immune from. They grew in faith as we all must. Christian growth is a process for each of us. To be a doctor one must make a decision to do so. Which begins a process of daily even minute by minute decisions to become that. Many years of study and training later the title of doctor is bestowed. But even after that there is a lifetime of study and learning to continue. With Christianity when God makes himself known and opens the gift of salvation to them they immediately call themselves a Christian. But the work has just begun. Sadly as the parable says some do not take root and some will not progress. Also not good.
Yet there is a history of those who were changed. Who lived a life devoted to furthering the Kingdom. Lives devoted to following Christ teachings and teaching that to others. With armies of disciples doing the same. And in the process changing lives, ministering to the sick and poor and defenseless and serving God... for no earthly gain. The works themselves aren't the end but the fruit of the Spirit alive within living out God's plan
Being good... following God's Will... for nothing worth anything in this life.
What they do makes no sense to unbelievers. Which is why they see Christianity as good for nothing. But is it really good for nothing?
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Post by timothyu on Mar 23, 2018 14:04:48 GMT -5
Clarification. I agree with what you say, but IMO it is those few within that find and accept change. The Christian institution itself is designed to work with the world of man, not as an alternative to it.
Christianity is good in that it allows the scriptures to be forwarded through time. God was fully aware that with the fall of Jerusalem unless the time of the Gentiles occurred, that the scriptures and movement could be lost as a motivating force throughout the world. God was well aware the Gentile princes (Matthew 20: 25) would return the movement to the traditional institutions of man built in their own image. As a result of their justification of self interest and power, a different gospel was created but the Gospel of the Kingdom remained to be found, not in the church but in the scripture it forwarded, safely hidden in plain sight.
The result is that man inserts 'himself' into the 'religion'. The result of that is that along with what mankind teaches us since birth in defence of our own will, it also teaches a religion which rejoined the world of man and teaches in defence of itself also. There is no outright world of man vs Kingdom in religion. There is no teaching defence of Kingdom over world of man. God is increasingly being made over in man's image rather than man changing (repenting) to serve the will of God (which is love neighbour/enemy as self) Were this not true the church and the secular world could not work together as institutions of worldly power. They would have opposing doctrine. So as you say it is the few within that find the narrow path rather than the adversarial highway that man has built.
I might add that at one time the people may have been willing to accept the connection between monarchy and Christianity, but today the alignment with politicians has not had the same effect and this bold manoever has made the hypocrisy readily visible to the public, no doubt fostering the drawing away from Christianity by those who may have once seen it as being representative as an institution of love. To reverse that drawing away, focus needs to be on Jesus once again and loving neighbour as self ESPECIALLY if it steps on the toes of the political or elite. Perhaps the time has come for Christianity to return to it's roots as an alternative to the world of man as the time of the Gentiles comes to a rapid end.
Perhaps the religious right won't appreciate it hoping that man will find salvation in a worldly leader like the Jews once wanted, but there are hundreds of millions out there who may have heard of Christianity but have never heard of the Gospel of the Kingdom as an alternative, and who may appreciate the return of Christianity to being an institution of love rather than as a means to a worldly end. BTW.. Using Christianity as a backdrop for free enterprising evangelicals in peddling apocalyptical survival packages hasn't helped the image of Christianity either while they profit from division rather than teach unity.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 23, 2018 15:23:18 GMT -5
<<<The Christian institution itself is designed to work with the world of man, not as an alternative to it.>>>
That's not what I've been taught.
While I can agree there are some within Christianity, aye many, who might fit the various characterizations in your post (hypocrisy, politics, enterprising evangelicals etc) the statements are too general and all encompassing for me. I may be mistaken but you seem to be painting with too broad a brush for me. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 23, 2018 16:02:25 GMT -5
Possibly
However, what is your opinion on what happened 1700 years ago when the church realigned itself with the Empire in order to create an institution to have physical authority over mankind? An authority using the same principles man had used before in creating their institutions and empires. An alternate foundation to the one Jesus taught, influencing Christianity until today. Remember Jesus said the rock his church would be built upon would be what came from God, and not what other man had said or done in order to influence or manipulate it.
How is that serving as an alternative to the world man has created? An alternative in the way that the WAY had done in centuries previous? How could an institution using Christianity as it's base go on to persecute others, set up who would rule over kingdoms and eventually become a kingdom itself ruling over monarchs?
How does that compare to what Jesus taught about being in the world but no longer of it, while living an alternative lifestyle with no rebellion against the reigning empires of man? Could Christianity function as originally taught or would modifications have to be made in order for it to work in the same way as man's world without appearing hypocritical?
Could Christianity teach the Gospel of the Kingdom without convicting itself? I say no. But scripture can. The Gospel of the Kingdom paints with a broad brush, Kingdom vs the world man has made in it's own image. IMO
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Post by timothyu on Mar 23, 2018 16:18:56 GMT -5
'That's not what I've been taught. 'It doesn't really come up. But how often does that contrast between the will of God/ways of the Kingdom get taught in contrast to daily life and what mankind holds dear in their institutions and governments? The most we usually see are identified personal sins rather than the original sin of man putting our will before God's and how we built our world upon that original sin. Do we get to defend it or should we see the difference and live accordingly? Would the world hate you? Would your allegiances be called into question?
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 24, 2018 6:57:13 GMT -5
<<<It doesn't really come up. But how often does that contrast between the will of God/ways of the Kingdom get taught in contrast to daily life and what mankind holds dear in their institutions and governments? >>>
In my world all the time.
<<<Do we get to defend it or should we see the difference and live accordingly? >>>
We can defend it by how we live. In the world not of it. Hated? We (active growing Christians)are hated now. Allegiances? Are we not commanded to obey our rulers until or unless they ask us to disobey God.
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