airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 26, 2018 14:35:16 GMT -5
<<< But the 'road closed - detour' sign has been up for so many centuries it is hard for the explorers to see past the blockade. >>>
Not if they're reading and studying the Bible. If the bible is not central to the teaching I agree with you.
Just a thought. Which do you think would further the kingdom more? Lighting the path toward the narrow gate or lighting the way toward exposing something that happened 1700 years ago?
Will those led astray be more influenced more by lighting the path to the Kingdom or pointing out where they have gone wrong? Seems like the board soon to go dark was filled with people on both sides attempting to prove the other side wrong. I'm thinking there was not one changed mind or heart.
back to the topic. Are there any examples in your circle of Christianity of good for nothing Christians?
Yes Norm. Freely we have received and freely we give. Give.... for nothing. But it's funny how things work in life eh? The more love you give freely... the more you receive back. If you want to be respected you must first be respectful. You will never be respected by disrespecting. The more respect you give freely the more you are respected. You want to be loved? Same thing. How many people love the unloving. But again it must be given without conditions... freely... without expecting a return. If it's not genuine and free it's not unconditional therefore not for nothing.
Good for nothing, love for nothing, respect for nothing. Serve for nothing. Even those we may think don't deserve it. That is the fruit of the Spirit which springs from Christ.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 26, 2018 14:53:42 GMT -5
Different strokes for different folks. That is why we all have our own individual 'callings' so to speak, reaching out in different ways to reach different people.
Will some hard headed find that the soft lit Kingdom that they may never have considered can be appealing even if their gospel of salvation is now put into question? Possibly, but the path is called narrow for a reason.
Will some hard headed angrily reject the Kingdom or any notion that they may have been mislead by the whore of Babylon for 1700 years or more. More than likely, for they are angry and aggressive to start with and have found a faith which suits their personality. Will they attack the Kingdom, or more than likely the messenger as Jesus was attacked?
Besides, without understanding (or more likely wanting to understand if it conflicts with their secular beliefs) the concept of world of man vs upside down Kingdom, they are not likely to understand there is any way other than what the world has taught us or be willing to listen to an alternative, or especially the fact the world may have made the Kingdom over in it's own image as a matter of self preservation. But we can try either way.
But will some who follow Christianity yet feel there is something amiss (those who continually seek God) accept the possibility that the Adversary is capable of infiltrating anything in earth and that misdirection could have been a possibility all along? All this while they watch those preaching not practising the same as they teach the masses? While watching the masses claim Christianity or salvation but act in ways opposite to putting God's will first and loving neighbour/enemy as self?
It is these who yes, may be willing to explore the idea the Kingdom teaches more than the world wants us to know. Exploring the concept with an open mind unlike the close minded of the former threads. Actually, it was because of those closed minded that I owe my escape from their world , unfortunately at the loss of course of a few good cyber friendships. So yes, there was one changed mind.
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Mar 26, 2018 14:59:50 GMT -5
Let the Church say, AMEN!
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Post by timothyu on Mar 26, 2018 15:44:15 GMT -5
I recently overheard something on tv somewhere, that was talking about William Penn I think it was, who made friends with the native inhabitants, much to their surprise and respect, by asking to learn about them and their ways of life. It apparently worked well for 2O years until others came in hell bent on making them over in their own image.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 27, 2018 6:53:31 GMT -5
<<<Will some hard headed angrily reject the Kingdom or any notion that they may have been mislead by the whore of Babylon for 1700 years or more. More than likely, for they are angry and aggressive to start with and have found a faith which suits their personality. Will they attack the Kingdom, or more than likely the messenger as Jesus was attacked? >>> It just seems to me you may be angry yourself. Calling those you wish to reach angry hard headed whores might not be the best starting point at revealing the Kingdom  <<< It apparently worked well for 2O years until others came in hell bent on making them over in their own image. >>> I'm not trying to be confrontational. IMO it appears you are hell bent on making over those angry hard headed aggressive whores no? 1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect |
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 27, 2018 6:58:03 GMT -5
<<< Let the Church say, AMEN!>>>
Amen to you brother Norm. Anything to add to the good for nothing Christian ministry? Anything good for nothing going on in your world?
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Mar 27, 2018 10:16:21 GMT -5
Well, even if people ARE sinners, we are STILL supposed to have compassion on them and show them the way to the narrow gate, and we are to do that for nothing:
"One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house and reclined at table. And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner.” And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.”
“A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” (Luke 7:36-48)
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Post by timothyu on Mar 27, 2018 12:54:20 GMT -5
I agree. Back in the old country of GB time was spent promoting the Gospel of the Kingdom in various threads. Providing an alternative to world of man and worldly Christianity in the way Jesus did also. There was no mockery or attempts to discredit others on my part but that was the natural reaction of others to the Gospel of the Kingdom, a gospel contrary to what they had been taught if not brainwashed to believe, especially if it was politically convenient. The result was a lot of defensive mode on my part, not in fighting fire with the same kind of hostile fire, but response on how the Kingdom did not resemble their ways of man that had been brought into Christianity.
The same droning on my part on and on about the Kingdom that no one actively posting wanted to hear because it conflicted with their secular ways. When attacks on the Kingdom proved useless then of course the attacks were turned against me. No problem. And the inability to anger me and drag me down to that level infuriated the flesh even more. Good ol' human nature. Amazingly enough, nothing thrown at the Kingdom could bring down what Jesus taught about it. It defends itself. It is also amazing how and why so many follow a different gospel but understandable when they still think like traditional fleshy man. Being born again is not discovering how to use God to justify or serve man's purposes.
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Mar 27, 2018 13:33:27 GMT -5
As you know, I took no part in that, and in fact, it was that type of nonsense that drove me away from those forums, never to return. It is my hope that GBO will be different and people can just stick to discussing the Bible WITHOUT the petty and personal attacks, as you, I and Airfresh have done in several threads.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 27, 2018 13:54:24 GMT -5
I understand but I for one will not pass a chance to compare the Gospel of the Kingdom, to the self justification of secular ways by way of their selective scripture, that goes on in Christianity threads. Even in the rare times I entered political threads it was usually to impress that division was a tool of the elite and unity was the antidote. But even some Christians preferred division no doubt because political ideals were more important to them than those of the alternate and optional Kingdom, and politics cannot exist without division. Will there be division and politics in the Kingdom. If not, why is it so important here to those claiming to be born again? An alternative is meant to be an alternate way of life.
Matthew 12: 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
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Post by borsht on Mar 27, 2018 21:16:44 GMT -5
OOPS! Not quick...Sorry.
Airfresh comments:” This topic has gotten off course. Unless your purpose is to show Christianity is... no good. And because of that Christians are... no good. I just don't agree with your broad based conclusions of Christianity or broad view that it is some kind of institution. As if it's similar to a governmental body. That has somehow gone terribly off track.
You may be disillusioned. May I suggest you look for a church that doesn't fit your view. They exist and are thriving. And aren't as scarce as you might think.” Amen!
There are some Rom 12:11-12 churches, they are usually small though.
Romans 12:11-12 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the LORD. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. I liked your bible study group that has a time of fellowship and study then goes and helps an elderly brother or sister with a project they could not do by themselves.
Thank you for the reminder. I too go off track, but I want to circle the bases to see what the essence is and get on track, the narrow track. That is in the affirmative; Christians that aren’t under Christ’s rule are not good. But they can be and God expects them to be Good.
So, What is Good?
Let’s start from Jesus’ discourse on Good.
Mark 10:17As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. “Good Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18“Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied, “No one is good except God alone.
An Aside In addressing this man’s issue Jesus makes the humble proclamation that He IS God.
So all good comes from God and now where else.
Context: How can the church be good?
In Matthew Jesus stated in what us know as “the Sermon on the mount” Where he stated what it means to be blessed.
1. Matthew 5:13-20 13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. 14"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." (Matt. 5:13 KJV)
Jesus said that salt without savor is "good for nothing." Savor is the ingredient, the characteristic that gives salt its quality--and its value. When salt is as it should be, it is a most precious commodity.
Not only is it used as a seasoning; but it is more importantly, a preservative. Salt was the primary source of food preservation before the days of refrigeration. Salt has been deemed to be so valuable at times that wars have actually been waged over it. During times of unusual deprivation, salt can be even more valuable than precious metals. But when salt loses its saltiness, it is absolutely worthless; it is "good for nothing."
Jesus plainly proclaimed that He viewed His disciples as being the salt of society. So when believers have the character they should have, they provide the preservation of the land.
They hold back and resist the putrefying properties of spoilage and decay. My ancestors from Norway can tell how salt preserves.
But when Christians lose their character, their Christ likeness, cease letting Him transform them; they then conform to this world.
Only letting the Holy Spirit teach one, can he be transformed. I love that Paul used the word transformed. God is looking for clay that He can make His pots out of, that can be for Good in the world.
But He is the potter , the pots are His workmanship. The clay merely yields to Him.
How then does one achieve Godly character? Be Transformed, It is the same word as transfigures or transmuted. Look at what Paul said.
Romans 12:1-2 “1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God-this is your true and proper worship.
2Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the RENEWING OF YOU MIND. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will
Strong 3339 metamorphóō, I love the meaning of ‘Transform’.
Transform ,metamorphoo, emphasizes a total change from the inside out. This is also a compound verb comprised of meta, implying change, and morphe , meaning “form,” having to do with the special, distinct, characteristic form or feature of a person or thing. The word “metamorphosis” comes from this word.
In Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2, the reference is to Jesus being transfigured. His disciples saw Him as He will be when He returns visibly to establish His kingdom.
In 2 Corinthians 3:18, “we all ... are being transformed into the same image ... as from the Lord, the Spirit.” Also the word transmute come from this source.
The transformation refers to an invisible process in Christians in which they undergo an unceasing and progressive spiritual change in the image of Christ, by the Spirit.
When Christians lose the internal resistance to decay, they become "good for nothing" and the result is, the land is "trodden under foot of men." They are instead crushed into the worlds system, Conformed.
Also the Greek Metaschematizo
A compound verb comprised of meta, implying change, and schema, “a figure, fashion,” having to do with appearance. The use in 2 Corinthians 11:13, 14, and 15 is regarding false apostles, Satan, and his servants who disguise themselves (the NIV translates this as masquerade). They take on an outward appearance, but there is no internal change.
It’s indeed grievous to say that, for the most part, the modern Christian, the modern pastor, and the modern church have lost their savor. They have been stomped into the mold of this world, with minimal resistance. Sometimes even with zeal, when following a leader with a false gospel.
Taken as a whole, the church the world sees, have lost our inner character: the ability to resist decay and preserve the land has long departed, and America is fast being "trodden under foot of men."
Many of our churches are no longer places of respite from the world: they are mirrors of the world: the same dress; the same attitudes; the same carnality; the same spirit; the same stubbornness; the same pride.
Churches are no longer bastions of truth: they are glorified social clubs or mere corporations, where Christianity is never allowed to interfere with business. Paul would say, may heaven forbid. Or Jesus would spew them out of His mouth.
Instead of being watchmen on the wall, our pastors are CEOs business experts or, even worse, politicians.
Popularity and personal ambition far outweigh commitment to truth and an independent mind.
And as for Christian homes, forget it. By and Large we have let the village mold the modern American home , this is straight out of Isaiah chapter three: "babes shall rule over them." They are free ranging. In the average "Christian" home, children rule the mothers, and mothers, in turn, rule the fathers. Discipline and instruction are out; leniency and ignorance are in.
If one is looking for someone to blame America's demise on, don't look to the prostitutes, drug dealers, or crooked politicians: look no further than the doorsteps of America's churches.
Sadder still is the lack of anything on the horizon that points to any kind of spiritual awakening.
"A French philosopher who visited America when it was a new young nation left a similar warning. Alexis De Tocqueville said he came to the United States to learn what magic quality enabled a handful of people to defeat the mighty British Empire twice in 35 years. He looked for the greatness of America in her harbors and rivers, her fertile fields and boundless forests, mines and other natural resources. He studied America's schools, her Congress, and her matchless Constitution without comprehending America's power. Not, until he went into the churches of America and heard pulpits "aflame with righteousness" did he understand the secret of her genius and strength. De Tocqueville returned to France and wrote: "America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great."
Genuine Bible prophets usually occupy the pulpits where hardly anyone attends. Truth has been replaced with entertainment, and calls for repentance are drowned out by the clamor for prosperity theology or make me happy theology. Jesus didn’t come to make people happy!
Jesus came for the utmost service. He came that people that He loved could come to know the Father as He knew Him, and know Him forever more.
It takes a toll on one's physical health and emotional being, and even on one's family. Any pastor desiring to carry the torch of truth today need not expect to have many friends. And any evangelist desiring to carry the torch of truth today need not expect to get many meetings. Truth is about as popular as a bad case of the measles, and yes even today's professing "Christians." Being stomped on into the ground of this world is not a happy experience. Jesus never ever promised a easy life. He did promise a hard one, and He promised that all power has been given to Him, and He would always be with His trusting followers. They indeed thus can be true leaders, because they are following the THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
When the salt loses its savor, it is "cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." And that is exactly what is happening to the US church today. Thus, the church becomes “NOT GOOD nor GOOD for anything.”. Just good for nothing.
Let me apologize for taking so long for a wrap.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 27, 2018 22:09:51 GMT -5
Welcome borsht. Good post.
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Mar 28, 2018 8:05:22 GMT -5
Excellent study there Borsht. So much to digest. And so much on point and relative to the topic. You just popped it.So many excellent Scriptures too. A few of my favorite. I think we are all more in agreement than not. Any differences are in degrees.
To what extent do you think the perception... and our perception of the state of Christianity is shaped by media... of all kinds... and do you think it's accurate?
I've said this before and believe it strongly. Television and most media as well is like a telescopic view. Imagine yourself on the top of a mountain overlooking a valley. In the valley is a large lake surrounded by a vista of rolling mountains. The sun is high and the bluest of blue skies. You are looking from left to right marveling at God's creation. Now imagine you are looking though a telescope. Are you seeing Gods creation as clearly? Yes you can examine small pieces of it more closely but you are missing the big picture. Now imagine because of the magnification and limit in scope you spotted a garbage can overflowing with debris and flies and maggots. It's part of the reality. But again only a part. Now imagine you have no control of the telescope. All you see is what the owner of the telescope wants you to see. And he stays on the garbage can exclusively. I feel strongly about this too... the one who controls the media has total influence on those in the media because unbelievers dominate the media and entertainment culture.
All the while salty Christians are doing good.... for nothing.... in obscurity all over the world.
One more example from my church. Missionaries in Iraq. Risking their lives for the kingdom. No financial gain. No fame. Not highlighted on the nightly news. These examples are multiplied millions of times over around the world. If we are basing our judgements about Christianity and "The Church" based on media we are being deceived and led by a different master. A real good for nothing.
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Mar 28, 2018 9:51:12 GMT -5
The media isn't shaping the perception, it's the political (and somewhat militant) "Christians" that are shaping that perception of themselves. You have Evangelicals out there in front parading the King of Trumplandia as a "godly man, chosen by God" to be president, when the guy can't even name a passage of scripture when asked what his favorite verse is. And you have those same folk twisting scripture to defend his actions when he does wrong. Christians are not supposed to be about that. so that when sin is shown, they can cry aloud and spare not. But you really can't do that when you're part of the crowd defending, justifying and excusing the sinning. Consider the following:
"A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:18-20)
The perception of the State of Christianity is nothing more than a reaping of bad fruit...
My 2 cents.
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Post by timothyu on Mar 28, 2018 13:28:56 GMT -5
Has not Christianity, the religious institution itself, always been on shaky ground, EXCEPT for when it was aligned with empires and kingdoms of man, the controlling voice over the masses and of nations. Did it not become an empire itself and even in one case a nation?
Did we not look until recently as Christianity being the big three or whatever... Orthodox, Catholic, and the various big names of Protestant... Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian. That was it. You were one or the other or none of the above. Simple. Yet these were seen for what they were, monoliths of Christianity. There are those within who use God to suit their purposes. There are those who change themselves to serve the will of God. It is very lopsided. The official institution itself has always served as a tool of the world of man, not exclusively of God.
Yet in the last hundred years, especially with free enterprise, thousands of new Christian faiths/cults/businesses have sprung up. As was mentioned about media, if it were not for media those snake oil tent revivalists would still be wandering around in the desert all but unheard of. Communism, the great capitalistic experiment, removed the institution but the faith remained in the homes. This while the opposing side at first used Christianity as a banner against the new heathen foe. Political manipulation using the reliable religious ally. All human manipulation of Christianity or the purposeful lack of it, for gain at the expense of others.
But what is happening today? Religion after a thousand plus years is no longer needed to manipulate or control the people (make that Christianity as other religions still control as we have seen). We have the digital age as the new god of control over the people's privacy and wealth, determining who may or may not buy and sell soon. Confessionals, religious stool pigeons, or easily managed territories as data gatherers no longer necessary in a global world posing the same threat at the time of Babel when God confounded language to weaken the power of man.
As a result, Christianity is being allowed to self destruct as we are seeing, it's purpose no longer needed by the worldly powers who have used it for over 1700 years. It's a new world.
Is this good or bad? Well IMO the fall of Christianity as a moral/ethical force is bad, but the movement back into the homes, like what happened in Russia or China, and gatherings can be good as people focus on scripture rather than the institutions (no longer needed by God to move scripture forward). Jesus is not in the institutions but rather in the scriptures, the people and their gatherings. The Kingdom as shown by Jesus' life has always survived through simplicity. Those repenting of their complex worldly ways will find it.
We know the outcome of what is happening now. Why fight what is meant to be as the final battle between the will of man and God unfolds. Hopefully the Kingdom has been chosen over the world that man has built in our image. Turn on the media to see what is not the Kingdom.
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