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Post by timothyu on Apr 17, 2018 17:58:18 GMT -5
No more self interest, self serving attitudes, seeking gain at the expense of others, all the while self justifying our deeds by self determining what is good and evil to suit our wants. while we also support others who follow that path also. All the institutions of man basically. If you don't understand that or prefer to delude yourself, you either haven't listened to Jesus or refuse to, seeking instead a back way into the Kingdom.
A couple of these threads got off to a good start talking about self justification and the Kingdom but now a reverse attitude is coming to light where justification of man's ways and the world are seeping in and the Kingdom is no longer the point of focus.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Not one of those scriptures condones willingly living in or supporting the traditional ways of man. Are they not convenient to your personal agenda? Are you a slave of the world of man or a willing supporter?
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Post by timothyu on Apr 17, 2018 18:09:30 GMT -5
I don't condemn them but God does and has since the Garden. I was duped by the world also but have been given sight of the alternate Kingdom and how it's ways contradict ours. My wish is others quit defending this world we have created for it will be destroyed for the trash system it is. Why defend garbage? God only forgives a change of heart and attitude. The unchanged have whatever reward they can eke out here for themselves. The Kingdom is not theirs.
And in reference to people all over the globe, Jesus never said any had to become Christians to be saved but simply repent (change) of the self serving nature of man and put God's will first, (whether you know Him or not), and love neighbour/enemy as self.
There will be many slaves, servants, women, poor, oppressed and even regular selfless folks all over the world that will find themselves in the Kingdom thy didn't even know existed because they lived that way. God chooses whom he wants to live His ways. There will be wailing and gnashing of over whitened teeth as the Lord lords and religious political zealots and oppressors demand their rights they never deserved.
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Post by gth (Columbus OH) on Apr 17, 2018 21:01:46 GMT -5
No more self interest, self serving attitudes, seeking gain at the expense of others, all the while self justifying our deeds...But what concrete, specific examples do you have? This is more of your characteristic vagueness. But all of those scriptures can be lived out in this world, and have been by many saints and holy men and women. 2 primary examples are Billy Graham, who probably preached the Gospel before more people than anyone alive; and St Theresa of Calcutta, who cared for the poorest of the poor in Calcutta for many years. Did they live in the Kingdom? If so, how?
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Post by timothyu on Apr 17, 2018 21:14:46 GMT -5
Let me guess.. some theological concept rather than what Jesus said, that I wrote previously?
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Apr 17, 2018 22:09:43 GMT -5
You contradict scripture there bro: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:1-9)
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airfresh
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Post by airfresh on Apr 18, 2018 6:43:29 GMT -5
I personally have simply been asking questions to understand where you're coming from. Others have simply disagreed with your interpretation of Scripture. No one is defending this world or man's ways over God's ways. The difference seems to be point of focus. Your point of focus seems to be Kingdom and man's responsibility to earn his way there which I am still trying to determine what you mean by that. While others point of focus is Jesus as God's Son dying on a cross for the propitiation of sin.
Both require repentance. Both require change. Both require the renewing of the mind. Both require being not of this world. Both require dying to self. And to do all of that completely and perfectly on our own efforts is impossible in both scenarios.
Which still leaves the problem of sin. No?
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Post by gth (Columbus OH) on Apr 18, 2018 8:20:32 GMT -5
Let me guess.. some theological concept rather than what Jesus said, that I wrote previously? No need to guess. I gave you 2 concrete specific examples of Christians renowned for leading holy Christian lives, and asked for your comment, on whether or not they lived "in the Kingdom."
So, how about it?
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Apr 18, 2018 10:37:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure where you're getting that from. My understanding of scripture is that we're supposed to exhort and encourage one another (i.e., iron sharpens iron) so that we are strengthened in the tasks that we are supposed to be about until the Lord's return:
"And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he comes shall find so doing. Truthfully I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the male servants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:42-48) And while the kingdom is our ultimate goal, while we are here on earth, we are supposed to be pointing others in the right direction (towards the Lord), so that they too can become disciples: "Go all of you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:19-20) "But all of you shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and all of you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
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Post by timothyu on Apr 18, 2018 12:10:25 GMT -5
No contradiction. That is in simple reference to the Kingdom and rejection of the ways of man as I have stated..
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Post by timothyu on Apr 18, 2018 12:16:32 GMT -5
I've never said anything about earning our way, at least in the usual pounce upon knee jerk reactions of some regarding works. I said we simply either support the system man has created in man's and the Adversary's self serving ways, or we reject it for the Kingdom and it's opposite ways. We can't have it both ways.
Jesus died on the cross because man will not allow our self serving system to be challenged by outside influence. Hasn't worked any time in history. Yet man foolishly thought that 'kill it' would be the end, but instead God would use man's foolishness against ourselves, and resurrected Jesus which in turn brought about the Kingdom which will replace the world. That was salvation for those who rejected man's traditional ways, the death being a means to an end.
The more man rejects the Gospel of the Kingdom for another, the more powerful the Kingdom becomes and man's world will less likely survive. Even Christianity which has diverted the teachings of Jesus and demands allegiance by it's followers to protect itself, will disappear and not be a part of the Kingdom. Christianity itself simply a means to an end in carrying scripture forward (where truth resides) while the institution itself is corrupted by man just as the synagogues were in Jesus' time.
There is only one sin and that is putting our will before God's ( which spawns all the sub sins man likes to accuse others of). Once we chose which will we will follow, of course this being the Adversary's world, we will stumble but learn with each mistake now that our sight is no longer on defending the traditional ways of man. The more we stumble the more we understand how one is the only way compared to the other and while one way creates problems the other rectifies/prevents them. None of this, 'I'm an imperfect human and can't help making mistakes so why bother trying and I'm saved anyway so I'll keep living Caesar's way' nonsense.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 18, 2018 12:50:56 GMT -5
No need to guess. I gave you 2 concrete specific examples of Christians renowned for leading holy Christian lives, and asked for your comment, on whether or not they lived "in the Kingdom." So, how about it? Mr Graham and Mother T both had flaws to the end, but both focused on the ways of the Kingdom in different ways. Billy started out foolishly combining his religion with the world of man, specifically politics, but later repented of those ways, realizing the Kingdom of God and the world do not work together but represent opposing camps. Mother T was an ill tempered woman who had no use for the self-aggrandizing attitudes of man, but knew in order to get the funding she needed to do God's will in loving neighbour/enemy as self, she would have to put up with the arrogance and ignorance of man intent on patting themselves on the back with pomp and ceremony in order to get the cash. Booth learned to be slaves within a system but to use it for the benefit of others not self (unless you count Mr Graham's wealth.. given enough time he might have given it to Mother T. ).
Either way God can use anyone to serve His will but will not use anyone to serve the will of mankind.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 18, 2018 13:00:14 GMT -5
We are to 'exhort and encourage' each other on the way to and the ways of the Kingdom. In the same way Jesus said the HS would come to guide them to the Kingdom and help keep them on it's narrow path.
Man being man takes anything and converts it to serve self. Where 'exhort and encourage' becomes, as an example, the house rule of the religious right in their pursuit of unGodly purposes in order to bolster their platform. In turn they condemn anyone who dares not 'exhort and encourage' their agenda. Others use the HS as an excuse to validify anything they wish that benefits their theological outlooks that more often than not suits their worldly well being rather than the will of the Kingdom. Consumer beware.
Yes the Kingdom, not just the Lord, and the simple direction Jesus gave to find it, put the will of the Father first which is to love neighbour/enemy as self, the foundation of life in the Kingdom. This while man in typical man fashion often comes up with all sorts of theology they claim the HS has given them in order to suit their self serving 'denominations'. The same way others use God to justify their actions rather than changing to suit the will of God. God says it is this way, sorry if it conflicts with the traditional ways of man, but you can't have it both ways. Man says I have a philosophy it is this way and we can have the two work together.
God's way is never good enough for man, so one has to be very careful who they follow, especially when finding the Kingdom and world of man don't mesh is most often in hindsight. Trust no religion, trust only the truth in Jesus words. One serves the world of man, the other the Kingdom.
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RNorm
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Post by RNorm on Apr 18, 2018 14:26:33 GMT -5
You're doing a lotta of generalizing there bro. As you well know, I'm not a member of the religious right, so I wouldn't be supportive of their agenda or platform. Moreover, I don't use the holy spirit to do anything. I strive to follow HIS lead and when I fall short He convicts and corrects me and puts me back on the right track.
While I have studied theology, I do not try to make myself out to be a Theologian; because sometimes theology overly complicates what was intended to be quite simple, i.e., Obeying the Lord. I can and do appreciate theology, but my basic position is that one doesn't need to have a theological reference and/or degree in order to do what scripture plainly states.
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Post by timothyu on Apr 18, 2018 17:08:03 GMT -5
Have to unfortunately. Man refuses to let it remain simple cut and dry as Jesus taught it and no matter what good comes along someone is going to revert it back to the ways of man. The distinction need be made. Too bad for the most part, 1700 years of official Christianity closed that divide.
Agreed. Theology is merely human philosophy relating to religion.
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Post by gth (Columbus OH) on Apr 19, 2018 7:37:02 GMT -5
Mr Graham and Mother T both had flaws to the end, but both focused on the ways of the Kingdom in different ways. Billy started out foolishly combining his religion with the world of man, specifically politics, but later repented of those ways, realizing the Kingdom of God and the world do not work together but represent opposing camps. Mother T was an ill tempered woman who had no use for the self-aggrandizing attitudes of man, but knew in order to get the funding she needed to do God's will in loving neighbour/enemy as self, she would have to put up with the arrogance and ignorance of man intent on patting themselves on the back with pomp and ceremony in order to get the cash. Booth learned to be slaves within a system but to use it for the benefit of others not self (unless you count Mr Graham's wealth.. given enough time he might have given it to Mother T. ).
Either way God can use anyone to serve His will but will not use anyone to serve the will of mankind. So talking with political leaders and receiving funds from worldly sources is not "living in the Kingdom"?
Mother Theresa actually served the poor in obscurity from the late 1940s, when she left her educational order in India and started serving the poor on the streets of Calcutta, until the 1970s, when British journalist Malcolm Muggeridge published her story in his book Something Beautiful for God and made her famous. So I think you are wrong about Mother Theresa. (Plus, that's the first time I heard anyone refer to Mother Theresa as having a temper. Every account I heard indicated she was very soft-spoken. But let that pass.)
As for Billy Graham, I agree that his meeting with Presidents didn't bear much fruit and may have marginally lessened his effectiveness as an evangelist. But is meeting with political leaders wrong?
You emphasize much stock in "God's will". Other than the 2 great commandments (which you posted before), just what does that consist of?
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