airfresh
Full Member
Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
Posts: 253
|
Post by airfresh on Apr 13, 2018 9:44:59 GMT -5
<<<Except for pockets here and there or through the occasional truth seeker within the faith,>>>
I respectfully disagree it's only pockets or occasional truth seekers. This is what I meant when I said I agree with you on a micro scale but not on a macro. I see more than pockets of exceptions or occasional truth seekers.
<<<Thus official Christianity whored itself to the world of man for the power and authority it gained and the blind have mislead the blind ever since.>>>
So it appears my observation above is correct. I would disagree on two counts. One... I see no "official" Christianity. I see individual relationships with Jesus. Christianity is not an institution like a government or corporation. Again... I agree on a micro (there are religious organizations that attempt to create what I think you've been referring to as an institution) but disagree on a macro that there is an official Christianity that has accomplished that.
And IMO the observation that it's been the blind leading the blind flies in the face of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit being at work in individual lives every day. It's God opening the eyes of the blind. Even as I agree with much of what you have said in our exchanges... up to a degree and with some major distinctions... we see from completely different vantage points.
|
|
RNorm
Champion Member
Cry Aloud and Spare Not...
Posts: 6,980
|
Post by RNorm on Apr 13, 2018 10:24:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by timothyu on Apr 13, 2018 10:34:37 GMT -5
The gentile religion was already in turmoil over hierarchy and content for the simple reason the self serving will of man was already at work within Christianity. When Constantine made it a State religion, it was official. Christianity no longer represented the Kingdom, but instead the State. It took the lead of it's three in one emperor and the traditional structure of the State. Typical institution.
Constantine used God and the religion to unify His empire after seeing that advertising the faith on shields could win a battle as opposing Christian soldiers switched sides during the empire's civil war. The result was the institution known as the Church (the face of Christianity) from the original Roman Greek which later splintered into all the various churches and denominations in Christianity today, the main stream of which all followed the example of the Roman empire in goal of gain and authority, not for God's Kingdom, but their own. You know the results, the power and the oppression.
Power demanding to be fed is an institution of man and that was/is the Christian religion and it's churches. The neglected Kingdom did not demand the same but that we feed each other. Those few who do that are indeed the true churches but do not affiliate with the traditional ways and self serving institutions of man. There is Christianity and it's pomp as the world knows it and there is Christianity as Jesus intended. The two are not one.
FFT (food for thought) I wonder what the world would say if I launched a class action lawsuit against the Christian denominations of the world to cease and desist from using the 'brand' Christian which belonged to Jesus and those of the Way. What would the religion we have come to know change it's name to? Would the remaining small Christian force meet the same fate as that of early Judaeo Christianity or would God raise it up in the third age?
|
|
|
Post by timothyu on Apr 13, 2018 10:36:31 GMT -5
They didn't want all the tourism to go to Florida where it is legal..
|
|
|
Post by gth (Columbus OH) on Apr 13, 2018 14:57:31 GMT -5
airfresh, as you can see, tim's version of Christianity is quite a bit different from ours or mine. And trust me, we just scratched the surface here.
But when I said his beliefs were "vague" he refers constantly to the "Kingdom" without any specifics on what it means, or how we as Christians should live differently from what more orthodox forms of Christianity have taught so as to live in the "Kingdom." At times, it has even seemed to me that tim focuses more in the Kingdom, than the King. I even tried to pin him down (in a topic on the Trinity opened by a Jehovah's Witness) on whether or not he believed in the Trinity. His answered were similarly vague and contradictory.
But I need to clarify this you said:
<<<Except for pockets here and there or through the occasional truth seeker within the faith,>>>
One... I see no "official" Christianity. I see individual relationships with Jesus. Christianity is not an institution like a government or corporation.
While the Catholic and eastern Orthodox Churches are quite institutional, and Protestants less so (sometimes much less so), all agree that there is the Body of Christ, mentioned especially in the NT letters of Paul. Even Jesus mentions the Church (Matt 18:17).
Being a Chrstian is never a "me and Jesus" thing. That might be a part of Tim's problem. He's doing it by himself and not in fellowship with other believers.
|
|
airfresh
Full Member
Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
Posts: 253
|
Post by airfresh on Apr 13, 2018 18:52:30 GMT -5
GTH <<<all agree that there is the Body of Christ, mentioned especially in the NT letters of Paul. Even Jesus mentions the Church (Matt 18:17).>>>
Absolutely. Total agreement. My point was about the idea there is some "official" Christianity. We are part of the Body of Christ but it is not a monolith body overseen by men. As implied.
<<<Being a Chrstian is never a "me and Jesus" thing.>>>
Also true though that wasn't what I was implying. It's that monolith institutional thing.
As far as Tim is concerned I don't know where he stands only God does. That really isn't my business. I'm just having conversations. We agree and disagree.
|
|
|
Post by timothyu on Apr 14, 2018 22:55:37 GMT -5
I've explained from complicated to simplest of terms, Kingdom good, world of man bad, but the problem seems to be a desire on the part of brainwashed Christians to not want to accept the division between the world man has made and the Kingdom... and act accordingly. They seem to want to have it both ways. God was clear, our ways are not His and His Kingdom is opposite to the world we have made, just as what Jesus the King taught about it in opposition to what the religion teaches.
The religion as it officially stands and it's representatives cannot teach about the Kingdom without convicting themselves, their religion and this world.
That's the point. We start out under the influence of church and 'other believers' who cannot see the Kingdom for the world of man's influence and making. But in actively seeking the Lord around us and in scripture, one soon sees the conflict between this world and the Kingdom, including a shunning of the Kingdom Gospel for another, and soon one realizes if they are truly seeking the Lord, that fellowship with backwards thinking fellow believers stuck in theological allegiance, is no longer advantageous. No doubt why they are so desperate to hang onto new converts and make them over in their own image.
|
|
airfresh
Full Member
Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
Posts: 253
|
Post by airfresh on Apr 15, 2018 7:45:03 GMT -5
This may be one of those vague areas GTH is talking about. Could you be more specific with what you mean by brainwashed Christians? Who exactly are you talking about?
Again I have no idea what you mean by Kingdom Gospel. The Gospel (Good News) as I understand it is Jesus death for the propitiation of our sin. A restoration of our broken relationship... from the garden ...and our current natural sin nature that can never be reconciled with God's nature on our own.
Again if you would indulge me... one more clarification. Allegiance to what theological concept?
|
|
|
Post by timothyu on Apr 15, 2018 13:18:46 GMT -5
The one below in the next quote
Is the Gospel of the Kingdom the gospel you just spoke of? No. Just a vague misdirected reference to salvation, conveniently leaving out the Kingdom as a focal point. Jesus saved us, but by way of and towards what? He would not be called King without His Kingdom. Yet after the Resurrection, Paul spoke of the Gospel of the Kingdom at least three times, Phillip once.
Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 28:23 He expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets
Acts 28:30-31 And received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ
Acts 8: 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
And referred to the Gospel of the Kingdom in Galatians, not the gentile gospel of salvation that the self serving gentile church would have us believe that you quoted above..
Galatians 1: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Romans 1 states ... 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
This verse and the following verses referring to the Gospel of the Kingdom and not the gentile substituted gospel which as your statement above makes no mention of the Kingdom but instead allows the world to continue on as it has with the false believe we can continue our ways without change, just as the church wrongly reverted back to doing itself.
This while Jesus spoke of it, the Gospel of the Kingdom constantly in all of His teachings, at least 52+ times directly in scripture, yet never mentioned the one you spoke of. All reference to the Gospel by Jesus was in reference to the Kingdom. That is scriptural and not theological in basis of fact.
Yet theology at the hands of the early gentile church diverted attention from the Kingdom and back to the world of man. The gentile church focused on another man instead. A man whose instructional letters they used to built a church while purposely leaving out the reason for the church in the first place, the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Kingdom was/is an enemy to the world of man.
Hence the gentile Christian religion. A pretty vessel but empty. Just as Jesus said of the Pharisees. Matthew23: 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
When you figure that out for yourself, you will have seen above and beyond what the gentile religion has taught and people accept out of allegiance to the gentile church and religion itself. They are no more on the side of God than were the Pharisees in Jesus' day for both were world powers bent on protecting themselves and the power they held within the world.
*James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Put the Kingdom back into Christianity. The world of man remains the enemy of God and His Kingdom. Which side are you on?
|
|
airfresh
Full Member
Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
Posts: 253
|
Post by airfresh on Apr 15, 2018 13:55:26 GMT -5
So you don't believe Jesus is "the way"? The change and salvation you expect depends on our own will?
I'm on the side who believes Jesus is who He says He is.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
He never once said let me SHOW you the way. He said I AM the way. I believe Him.
Thank you for clarifying.
|
|
|
Post by timothyu on Apr 15, 2018 14:08:53 GMT -5
Of course He is. He taught us the ways of and the ways to the Kingdom, His Kingdom. He taught us to do the opposite of the ways of man, using instead His ways and the ways of the Kingdom; loving neighbour/enemy as self. He opened the door to the Kingdom by His actions. He thanked the Father for giving those of the Kingdom to Him. He lived the way of God and the Kingdom, thus He was/is the way. No getting around having to change ourselves.
He taught us not to remain of the world, unlike the gentile religion which does in word and deed. He taught us, the whole world, that we have it backwards. His namesake religion barely mentions it.
Add the Gospel of the Kingdom to the mix and it is not so easy to simply say Jesus alone is the way (a subtle Adversarial twist) and focus on the man but not His message. Take the Kingdom away and a whole new outlook can be had.
Jesus was/is not a threat to the Adversary. The Adversary still rules here. Jesus' Kingdom however will bring an end to the Adversary's world and rule. That is why the Adversary's world and church's focus is on the man and not the message. It keeps people from abandoning the world in favour of allegiance to the Kingdom, just as the Adversary likes it.
|
|
|
Post by timothyu on Apr 15, 2018 21:15:26 GMT -5
BTW.. I appreciate those who comment or question, unlike most in Christian boards who are afraid to dialogue outside of their comfort zones for fear their protective worldly walls collapse, and as a result often restricting themselves to discrediting the messenger and not the message. The Kingdom to them, just like to the Adversary, is a Gospel best left unmentioned or unchallenged, simply because neither can defeat it.
|
|
airfresh
Full Member
Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy.
Posts: 253
|
Post by airfresh on Apr 16, 2018 7:21:22 GMT -5
You've given me your belief. As I said I believe Jesus is who He said He is. I can't convince anyone of that I can only give an account of why I believe what I believe. As I said Jesus never said he was here to show us the way but that He IS the way.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
He was without sin.
John 8:46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I’m telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?
He forgives sins... because He is God
Mark 2:5-7 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
John 10:36-38 how can you say to the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You’re blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I’m the Son of God’? 37 If I’m not doing my Father’s actions, don’t believe me. 38 But if I’m doing them, even though you don’t believe me, believe the actions, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
John 10:30-33 I and the Father are one.” 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
I don't believe it was a "claim" He said he would die and rise again and by all accounts that is what happened.
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Again this is not going to be a point counter point. I'm not gong to convince you and vice versa. You are and have been quite clear... here and in the place we shall not mention... in your condemnation of what you've called Christian whore's. This is just a small accounting of Jesus telling us who He is and part of what has led me to where I am today in my belief that He is the begotten Son of God and the purpose of Jesus death is for the propitiation of our sin. A restoration of our broken relationship... from the garden ...and our current natural sin nature that can never be reconciled with God's nature on our own. There is much more. But then it will be that point counter point that you refer to here..
<<<most in Christian boards who are afraid to dialogue outside of their comfort zones for fear their protective worldly walls collapse, and as a result often restricting themselves to discrediting the messenger and not the message. >>>
Though that statement seems a lot like discrediting the messenger to me. What generally happens is people take the counterpoint as a personal discrediting. Then respond in the same way they perceived.
You and I disagree. You've stated your reason and I've stated mine. Others can make up their own. I share my good news. You have your reasons for believing yours is good news. The Gospel is good news right?
I do have one question I'm curious about. It's not clear from your previous posts. Exactly and specifically how does one earn the right to the Kingdom in your Gospel belief?
|
|
|
Post by timothyu on Apr 16, 2018 12:31:13 GMT -5
Luke 4: And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
We can't ignore why He was sent in context with being the way. His followers called themselves The Way simply because they practised the ways of the Kingdom rather than the traditional ways of mankind. Man might name themselves after a leader but not so those of the Kingdom. That is a major difference between the two worlds. Another difference being one created a religion while the others lived a way of life. Let the blind understand this and have their eyes opened to Jesus' truth.
Of course. He lived and acted in the way of the Kingdom. Putting God's will first and loving neighbour as self (and enemy - forgive them for they know not what they do). He was offered the world by the Tempter and He turned it down for the Kingdom. Jews and Christians were offered the Kingdom and both turned it down for the world.
Are not we to forgive others of their sins? Are we not like them? Are we in any position to condemn or punish or instead... simply say, hey I'm the same as you and you can be forgiven for being like me. Together we can work together to make things better.
We here, are supposedly already under the heading of Christian. We know who and what the Messiah is. But that is not enough. He said His purpose was the Gospel of the Kingdom and to bring it to fruition.
The only ones who stand to lose, are the Adversary and those of this world who value what they can gain here over anything else. That includes the Christian religion/church. Yet man foolishly thinks that being a Christian or knowing who Jesus is is enough for salvation, like we are on the winning side. Another human concept and tradition.
Even the Adversary knew who Jesus was and knows scripture backwards, being a player in it all along. But the Adversary and his minions 'man', will not inherit the Kingdom because there is no place for them there, simply because they refuse to put the will of the Father first and live life loving neighbour/enemy as self. They prefer the system built upon man's self serving, self justifying will.
Correction. I called gentile Christianity the whore of Babylon. Peter called Rome Babylon and the new State church through which all congregations today have been born indeed whored itself back to the world of man for the power and authourity it's human leaders sought, thus as a result, making it more difficult for followers to see what Jesus taught about division between Kingdom and world of man. Their religion which returned itself to the world of man can hardly go about teaching that which condemns it, the Gospel of the Kingdom. Thankfully we have scripture for that for those with eyes who see and a mind capable of seeing beyond the ruse.
Exactly and we no doubt will continue to post based on two different gospels. I will stick with the one Jesus said was His, the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Jesus made that clear. Although the Kingdom and resurrection was a gift, to 'earn' it, or that is to say to do our part as Jesus commanded, we are to repent of the traditional self serving ways of man that have built this world in our image. Repent means change so we are to change our ways to those commanded by Jesus, to put the will of the Father first which is love neighbour/enemy as self. Those produce fruits that show we understand the difference between the two worlds and show where our allegiance lies.
Who says we can't live here while having a different allegiance than that to the system man has created. Jesus was by human standards, a radical who presented a counter-culture. We all know what man's system thinks of that. Your system a few decades back repeated what Jesus' followers faced many centuries ago.
The examples are there in plain view but how many have the nerve to reject in deed the world of man for the Kingdom. Yet in not doing so they have rejected the Kingdom for the world and put themselves in a far more precarious position. Funny how so many can claim they want what the Kingdom offers but refuse to act accordingly now while being put to the test.
There is nothing of this world we are to defend. We were cast into it to isolate us. It is a prison that we think we have made into a worthy kingdom in our own image.
|
|
RNorm
Champion Member
Cry Aloud and Spare Not...
Posts: 6,980
|
Post by RNorm on Apr 16, 2018 13:34:06 GMT -5
You're making lots of assumptions there bro. There are two things I'd point out to you: 1. Refrain from being so quick to make judgments of someone else's walk of faith: "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:4) 2. Jesus made it quite clear that just because someone isn't doing it as you do, that doesn't mean that they're automatically enemies: "John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us." (Mark 9:38-40)
My 2 cents...
Um, the Bible says that we were created here in God's image and were given dominion over the world he created. Thus, this world IS NOT a prison and we are never really isolated from God, unless we choose to remain in sin and stay separated from him. Moreover, he clearly promised that to those who are called by his name, he will never leave them or forsake them, so they are never alone... An extra nickel...LOL!
|
|